The intake air control valve (IAC), which regulates idle speed, also has to work overtime and often attempts to "catch" the idle, but usually shoots high or low. Known as "The Gladiator" around Westech Performance, this Dart SHP blockbased, 370ci, small-block Chevy has made thousands of dyno pulls testing all manner of heads, intakes, cams, and every other crazy thing us magazine folk have coerced Westech's Steve Brul to bolt to it. Pretty much standard for an RV type cam. My lift will be about .580" intake and exhaust, with about 230/236 duration with a 1.7 rocker ratio, utilizing a Jesel shaft rocker system. Moreover, a user from the Chevelle forum said. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. 108 vs 112 lobe seperation. The valve covers, valvetrain, intake manifold, harmonic balancer, front cover, timing set, and cam were yanked. All three terms are similar, as they all relate to the relationship between the centerline of the Intake lobe and the centerline of the Exhaust lobe. It has been tried in the VW business earlier, but then they gave it up because of problems with too high temperatures around the exhaust valve, causing them them to break. If you shift at 7500-7800 add 4-6 degrees to both intake and exhaust and spread the lobe separation to 108-110. lobe separation angle | For A Bodies Only Mopar Forum In reality, a cam with 220 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 112 will have the exact same mechanical overlap as a cam with 217 at 0.050" and a lobe center angle of 109. I also like the 106 lobe separation with the intake on 103. Camshaft: Hydraulic Roller, Comp Cam custom grind (ADV Duration 281-287,@ .050 230-236, lift 622I & 625E w/1.6 rockers.) Some of the confusion on this subject comes from what the meaning of "bottom" and "top" is to the speaker, I suppose. The world of fuel injection is where wide LSA cams like the 113 really shine. Brul spun the engine over with the dyno's starters and recorded 185 psi of cranking compression. by Kdub Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:20 am, Post We will also custom grind any of the above profiles with a custom lobe center, for an additional $20 dollars. This has been my long time understanding! For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. But nothing comes without a cost, and idle vacuum suffers as LSA shrinks. Mistakes that weaken a supercharger's performance Lobe Separation Angle - Restoration and Repair Help Its the shifting problem again with your Chevy! The center of those 2 events is the LOBE CENTERLINE (ECL). Say you have a cam ground on a 115 and the other on a 110. music to your ears? On a tight lobe separation, like 106-108 degrees, the engine will build torque quickly and reach its peak early. But to choose the perfect cam, all of that information needs understanding. We do not stock profiles with 109 or 114 lobe centers. The final, 108-degree cam stepped power up even further, with peaks of 572 hp at 6,300 rpm and 544 lb-ft at 5,200 rpm. It may not display this or other websites correctly. I probably would have gone with 3.55 gears had I knows better.. 110 LSA: Oppositely, the cylinder pressure is comparatively lower at 110 LSA than at 106 LSA. The taller lobe seperation will have a longer powerband but will have to rev higher to make the power than the lower lobe seperation! That way you can discuss what you want from the engine and how changes in LSA or any of the other specs will affect how the engine performs. Now here is where it gets tricky. Unfortunately, good street manners are often at odds with performance, as wilder cam timing usually decreases idle and (low-speed) driveability. Come join the discussion about restoration, modifications, NOS parts, troubleshooting, VIN codes, and more! Like choosing a cam in general, the key to eliminating separation anxiety is to find the proper balance of driveability and performance. So, now you, Read More Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main CulpritContinue, While changing the oil on your boats lower unit, you may need to change the drain plug, too. The same is true for intake valve closing. Here are the basics: higher lift values open the valves to increase airflow and longer duration keeps the valves open longer. 110 LSA) and Crane's #341191 (238/248, .563"/.587", 114 LSA), display considerably different characteristics. The lobe separation angle or LSA is the angle in camshaft degrees between the maximum lift points, or centerlines, of the intake and exhaust lobes. Thanks. 04 Minor modifications to the factory windage tray were necessary to work with the new stroker assembly. A wider LSA moves intake- and exhaust-valve events farther apart and creates less overlap, which hurts intake-wave tuning. The stock valvesprings supplied with the CNC LS3 heads were swapped out in favor of a set of dual springs from Brian Tooley Racing. what to expect with different lobe centers | Chevy Nova Forum 4-linked72, what cam are you using that has a 108 LSA? Going from a 110 to 112 lobe separtaion - Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum such as 290 @.050? You are using an out of date browser. All testing was performed with an Aeromotive fuel pump feeding a set of 42-lb/hr injectors. I though my car would have a nice rough idle with the solid cam with a tight LSA I put in my car, its go a slight lope to it, but it pulls hard. The takeaway from this test is camshaft LSA is a double-edged sword. i think a little more torque will be good for my car.With the XE274 it was a little slugish until around 3000 rpms. What brand and what are the specs on your cam, 4-linked72? Increased overlap improves upper RPM power. Generally speaking, decreasing the lobe centerline angle increases overlap. by mike thompson Tue May 13, 2003 4:03 am, Post THis is a real generalization, but the weaker your heads, the more you will like the smaller centers ( 106-108) the better the heads, and the higher the compression, the more it will like the wider centers ( 112-114)everything else falls somewhere in the middle( 108-110) Once you get close with the cam centerlines, it wont make much differance if you change it up or down by 2 degrees. 03 The 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods were combined with a set of forged asymmetrical pistons from JE. You can modify the lobe center a little bit but not enough to change the actual overlap of the grind. With the first cam loaded in the engine (the 101 LSA) Westech's Steve Brul made three dyno pulls, the average of which was saved to compare to the next cam. Armed with more information on camshaft theory, what will you build? Tight lobe separations, such as 108 or shorter, will cause the peak torque to build earlier in the RPM range and peak-out in a short amount of . It depends on the combination of engine size, head flow and head flow balance, as well as a big one, exhaust flow capabilities. Making this the biggest obstacle to overcome when selecting a cam profile with one of our tech advisors, explaining the definition and importance of the Lobe Center. The 112-degree cam (red lines) picked up much of the torque, but the big winner was the cam with the tightest lobe separation angle. 106 LSA: At this LSA, the car machine has to confront the reduction of idle vacuum rate quite often. Every spec is a road map to what the valves are doing, the most common of which are lift, duration, and lobe-separation angle (LSA)the latter needing the most explanation. We borrowed Westech Performance's shop mule, a 370ci small-block Chevy and its SuperFlow 902 engine dyno and spent a day running each cam back-to-back to gauge its effect on peak horsepower, peak torque, cranking compression, idle vacuum, and the powerband as a wholeall the variables that define an engine's character on the street and track. Lobe Seperation | Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum thanks. http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220, http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en6em_camshaft_specs/lobe_seperation_angle.html. Well, If I am not mistaken, you must be looking for which angle has what impact on your engine or which would be the best. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. This form of short-term memory is supported by the prefrontal cortex (PFC) and is believed to rely on the ability of selectively tuned pyramidal neuron networks to persist in firing even after a to-be-remembered stimulus is removed from the environment. ditto with the above. "When you've properly tuned a performance motor, you create high- and low-pressure waves in the intake and exhaust that help cylinder filling," said Comp Cams' Billy Godbold. . Let's just talk lobe sep angle. If you take any of the . What do you think of this cam choice? | Chevy Nova Forum Frankly cams with a 108-114 lca unless in the perfect combo you won't usually see more than 15hp and you won't really feel the difference except for either a peaky or broad power band. Fixing the ignition coils is essential when you experience issues like engine misfire and the Check Engine light that wont go off. A Pro Stock engine builder may prefer a wide LSA to help keep the power from breaking traction tOo early. Also know as Lobe Separation; Lobe Center is simply the distance between the peak opening points on the Intake and Exhaust lobes. I've seen a few comments in threads on here that have said things like "going to the 112LC from the 108LC gives 4lbft more torque at the bottom and 2bhp more at the top" yet this would seem to go against what webcam say on. = Tight Below 104 Deg. A forum community dedicated to Ford performance owners and enthusiasts. 110 LSA: On the contrary, it is pretty unpleasant to inform you that the efficient compression rate decreases at 110 LSA. Only once the intake valve has closed can compression begin to build. Comparison Table Between 106 Vs 110 Lobe Separation Angle. It's wet flow tested at 690cfm. If that were the only consideration, the 101 cam is the clear winner. The balance of midrange torque and top-end horsepower lends this LSA range to the majority of street/strip engines. See all 14 photos 13 The three power curves indicate that the wide (120-degree). The article was called "Separation of Power" and they tested 5 cams ranged from 106 to 114 LSA. This table will create a map in your head, and I bet it will make your understanding crystal clear. I just bought a 86b Webcam and Im using 1.5's. Defining Lobe Center and It's Importance to Engine Performance: A Blog. On engines equipped with independent intake and exhaust cams, the LSA is adjustable. Wide LSA cams are also applicable in forced-induction applications where less exhaust overlap is required. 110 LSA: However, if you look at the rate of cranking compression at 110 LSA, you will find a reduced compression rate from the standard cranking compression PSI level. Changing lobe seperation from 110 to 112-14? | For B Bodies Only A wide lobe seperation is not always better than a narrow one, or vise versa. 06 The ported heads featured a 2.165/1.590-inch valve combo. Valve lift will bear weight in any decision regarding LSA. Torsion Beam Vs Multi Link: Who Wins the Battle? According to the Comp Cams catalog, "The lobe separation angle (LSA) is equal to 1/2 the angle in crankshaft degrees of rotation between the maximum exhaust valve lift and maximum intake lift.". I personally prefer to sacrifice the small amount more power for better idle quality. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The engine will have weak performance in the low-end range.A low vacuum can also cause the brake pedal to be quite difficult to press. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Build your own custom newsletter with the content you love from EngineLabs, directly to your inbox, absolutely FREE! The Idles increasing vacuum improves the idle quality and the engines overall performance. (LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE)cam CRANES 110921 has the intake close at 45 degrees ABDC while the wider lsa CRANES 114681 closes the valves at 50.0 ABDC . 110 will be a bit punchier in the midrange and probalby make a little more peak horsepower as long as a good exhaust is used. Simply put, both 106 and 110 lobe separation angles have many advantages and disadvantages. 106 LSA: As the 106 LSA is a tighter LSA, it fails to generate maximum power. JavaScript is disabled. Vintage/Classic/Historical Engine Tech, 3V Performance Engine & Valve train Development, Race Cars & Parts - For Sale or Wanted. by flat4racer17 Tue May 13, 2003 9:12 pm, Post Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe separation angles do have an effect on overlap, it's still possible to get a lot of overlap with very wide lobe separation angle cams. ~These are just some of the drawbacks weas guys who like to go mach 10 with our hair on fire and these little motors screaming at rpms that make other guys cryhave to deal with.~. You must log in or register to reply here. Thanks again. Ultimately, it makes the 110 LSA an oil-consuming LSA. Walter Noah is a process engineer who has a knack for resolving even the toughest technical issue. hydraboost is the same as a vacuum brakebooster, only the booster is replaced by a unit that does the same but under hydraulic pressure. or just enough to keep the neighbors pissed? This cam split the difference between the 101 and 113 down the middle, and in theory should have walked the line between the results of the last two tests in every waywhich it did. Lobe separation angles, he continues, are influenced by the camshaft grind. 02 The 402-inch stroker short-block combined an aluminum LS2 block with a 4.000-inch crank and 6.125-inch rods. Lobe separations on 383-406 cids.104-106-108-110? - Don Terrill's Speed Looking at 108vs. To reiterate another point, I realize that wider LSAs tend to broaden the power band, but for a car I would like to bracket race a bit, as well as enjoy on the street, I was told that a narrower LSA will help the car accelerate at a faster rate. It is the average centerline between both lobes and expressed in degrees ranging from 95 on the extremely narrow/tight side to upward of 120 on the wide end. It provides a spark plug with the high voltage needed for combustion. ( 2 ) Estimated Ship Date: Feb 23, 2023 (if ordered today) Drop Ship. And better gas mileage. I think you are asking a lot of a cam . The reduced rate of the EGR effect lowers oxygen circulation in the engines combustion chamber. Our content is merely suggestive, not intended to use without proper safety precautions and advice. So, you can enjoy a mighty acceleration power at 110 LSA. 110 LSA: The 110 LSA shows up mechanically advantageous in mechanical aspects like higher RPM, lower engine knock, moderate cylinder pressure, improved idle vacuum, and higher piston-to-valve clearance. Required fields are marked *. by xstfudonniex Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 pm, Post Most cars use more than, Read More Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? It will also give you a smoother idle and probably even better gas mileage. so it is a solid flat tappet, torker intake, 1" 4-hole tapered spacer and 750 carb (QFT) transmission is a wide ratio toploader, rear is a 9" 3.89 geared 26"rear tires. Come join the discussion about popular models such as the Mustang, Galaxie, Falcon, Fairlane, Torino, Shelby and many more! In a blower motor when the valve timing events are where they need to be the lobe sep will usually wind up in the 114-115 range on most Combos. Check out the Comp Cams catalog, even the biggest hydraulic rollers use 110. Whatever you do, stay under 270 advertised duration and shoot for a 110 lobe separation. If it occurs too late, it will lean out the cylinder and greatly hinder the performance of the engine. Generally, naturally aspirated engines run narrower lobe separation angles of around 106 to 108 whereas supercharged, turbo or nitrous engines operate with 112 to 114 and higher. dont sound like a verry street friendly motor butany thoughts? What Is the SBC Header Bolt Torque? 2023 Power Automedia. Higher lift and longer duration profiles add power, but do so at higher engine speeds (especially true of duration). 01 Choosing the right lobe separation angle for your LS cam shouldn't cause anxiety. 08 Additional components used to build the stroker included a set of Comp hydraulic roller lifters, ARP head studs, and a new oil pump. This is ground into the cam and can't be changed without changing cams. I don't think your duration figures are too outlandish and with the tight LCA and high lift, it should make some big torque. With minimal overlap and a steady manifold vacuum signal, they work great with fuel-injection systems and are the norm on modern pushrod engines, such as the LS and Gen III hemi. Pinning the tail on the perfect cam can certainly be a difficult task. by Marc Mon May 12, 2003 11:38 am, Post Full text of "Pediatric Books" Well get out of that stocker and build a hipo motor for your VW. As boost increases, the air will be forced through the cylinder, vs. being trapped in the cylinder. If you compared these two cams side by side in identical engines, the first cam would actually have a slightly better idle and would produce slightly more peak power at upper RPM's. This may be of concern if you have vacuum assisted accessories, such as power brakes or steering. Yeah but do the experiment on the dyno and tell me your intuition is correct. That notion is completely false. This process slows down the reaction rates of the air-fuel mixture, causing temperatures to drop and preventing the engine from overheating. Depending on the engine combination, the opposite results can occur. Some of the programs like engine analyzer pro and dynomation seem to like some of the wider lsa's.Thanks again JOE. Camshafts Demystified - CarTechBooks TH400 Vs Powerglide: Which One is Ideal for You? Everyone has a different idea of gentle.While its true that the duntov cam may seem rough in a 283 it is still a factory offering and they never go to radical on there profiles for street cars.If you want a rough idle, try a 283 with a .550'lift roller and 13.5 to 1 compression,THATS ROUGH. Next up was the 112-degree cam, which actually lost out in peak power slightly to the 120-degree cam, but offered considerably more torque. Mechanical aspects like maximum torque, narrower powerband, higher cranking compression rate, efficient compression rate, effective EGR effect, and lower oil consumption rate increase the car engines efficiency and make it energy efficient. Effect Of Changes In Cam Timing And Lobe Separation Angle - COMP Cams Okay, have a sigh because you have opened the right door. Camshaft Lobe Separation Angle | Classic Car Restoration Club Kevko baffled oil pan & Milidon windage tray. All rights reserved. Camshaft Kits - 108 Lobe Separation (degrees) - Summit Racing Lobe Separation Angle Explained and How it Affects Horsepower - MotorTrend Turbochargers are not as simple as they may sound; you may think of them only as power-boosting components. 11 Doing LS cam swaps on the engine dyno is a breeze, each taking less than 1 hour. Part Number: HRS-CL120325-08. On the cranking. 554"/577" lift. The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. The 234o duration kind of eliminates the RV usage. The 120-degree cam minimized torque production through most of the curve, while the 112-degree cam offered more torque but slightly less peak power. The #1 intake lobe centerline is usually between 100 BUT, 114 will have more vacuum at idle, which will work better with some fuelinjection. i have a 4 bolt 351C, stock bore, 10.5 cr with 351C Boss heads ,boss crank and rods. Average power was also down, but the engine pulled ahead of the 101 cam at 5,400 rpm, picking up 6.5 hp at peak. Hopefully It will do fine in my 2276 mostly drag bug. Lucky for us, Brian Tooley Racing stepped up with a dual spring package that allowed us to safely run our 0.624-lift cam. 106 LSA: There is a scale of standard cranking compression of the engine. LSA is the distance from the centerline of the intake lobe to the centerline of exhaust lobe. But an interestingly shocking fact is that this event escalates the air-fuel mixtures reaction rates, causing temperatures to rise and causing the problem of overheating the engine. Again this is dependent on your shift rpm and assuming you truly have 14-1 compression. also,, wider will produce a wider and more flat torque curve that doesn't fall off as abruptly up top rpms. Bad idea in my view. Ed JTO learn to park Joined May 31, 2009 180 Posts Myoinositol reduction in medial prefrontal cortex of obsessive The 112-degree cam offered nearly all the low-speed and mid-range torque of the 108 cam but the peak power suffered above 5,200 rpm. It will have slightly higher vacuum at idle, feel smoother through the power curve but have a bit less midrange. So the wider LSA introduces a broader and therefore longer torque band.. I will be running an Edelbrock Performer RPM, with a Quick Fuel 750cfm with a screw adjustable vacuum secondary; it's called the Pro-vac. That is why 106 LSA consumes less oil. The lobe separation angle is the angle between the two camshaft lobes that act on the valves. any input is appreciated guys, thanks. It affects the amount of valve overlap; that is the brief period of time when both the intake and exhaust valves are open. Increased Effective Connectivity of the Left Parietal Lobe During Also If you go with 112 lobe centers, you create less valve overlap which will increase your compretion. But, the narrow or broad powerband choice varies from person to person. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. However, the plentiful exhaust overlap (31 degrees) meant there was lots of exhaust dilution at low engine speed and high vacuum. 110 LSA: On the other hand, 110 LSA is comparatively a wider LSA; it can generate a massive amount of RPM for the engine. That is no accident. how much boost on a 110 lob sep cam vs 112 vs 114 110* LSA - lobe separation angle (lobe displacement angle) The +2* means your intake lobe centerline is advanced to obtain a 108* ICL - intake centerline and a 112* ECL - exhaust centerline. A cams Lobe center angle equals intake centerline plus exhaust . The other thing is that you need to tune your ignition advance to maximize your performance. As a result of this fall, the idle of the engine has to face suffering quite often. 110 LSA: On the contrary, at 110 LSA, the engine fails to reach the maximum torque, resulting in a decrease in torque rate. The tighter the lobe separation angle, the peakier the power curve will be, confirms Bolander. Simply put, the lobe separation angle (LSA) is a measurement of how the intake and exhaust lobes are phased with each other. Well, it is quite a natural event that you may not find the lope separation angle mentioned at the engine body. Now its not shifting into 3rd and you are here. Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL120325-08. Aeromotive; 913.647.7300; AeromotiveInc.com, AFR Heads; 661.257.8124; AirFlowResearch.com, Federal Mogul/Felpro; 248.354.7700; FederalMogul.com, Mahle; 248.347.9700; Mahle-Aftermarket.com, Scat Enterprises; 310.370.5501 ScatEnterprises.com, SuperFlow Dynamometers and Flow Benches; 515.254.1654; SuperFlow.com. 106 LSA: There is an increasing chance of engine knock at the 106 lobe separation angle. camshaft is a Cranecams F238. A forum community dedicated to vintage Ford Mustang owners and enthusiasts. This is why the LS series, and many other modern engines, can make great power on top and bottom with wide LSA camshafts and why a plethora of factory cylinder heads are flowing near (or above) 300 cfm. probably just enough to get me in trouble.. Disorganization of language and working memory systems in frontal If you look at any given cam catalog, you will find that the majority of street-oriented cams fall in this range. Well, I saw that Erson makes some nice hydraulic rollers with 108 LSAs, and I know that tighter LSAs have more midrange, so I thought they might be worth a try. On a torque graph it tends to resemble a triangular shape.. Lobe seperation cant be seperated from duration,the 2 are connected.the old duntov cam had a lot less duration than many new cams so the valve overlap was not extreme and the engine ran with a gentle lope.Increase the duration by 20* and this cam would shake a 283 out of the car at idle,but then increase the lobe seperation by 4* and the motor will have a gentle lope again. However, a cam with 108 will only pull 12-16", which is not enough for power assisted accessories. I believe you have got the idea of what you were seeking. While most of our customers know what lift and duration are, most are unfamiliar with the term Lobe Center and how it affects the engines performance. by mrsmythe Tue May 13, 2003 5:45 am, Post But for small-block Chevys (like the LS applications in this story), the LSA is ground into the cam. So, choose the perfect lobe separation angle for your engine, complying with the requirements of your needs. 2.1.3 Transponder reply modes (air-to-ground) 2.1.3.1 Transponders shall respond to Mode A interrogations in accordance with the provisions of 3.1.1.7.12.1 and to Mode C interrogations in accordance . The 114 cam will give more low end torque, good midrange, less power up high. Lobe Separation Angle, or LSA, is the number of degrees that separate the peak lift points of the cam's intake and exhaust lobes. Chevy Transmission Wont Shift Into 3rd: Finding the Main Culprit, Yamaha Lower Unit Drain Plug Size [Explained Everything], Does It Matter Which Ignition Coil Goes Where? that is why people running 112 or 114 lobe centres retard the cam ,that way the exhaust event is back were it was before .this helps in exhaust valve tempatures--anyway today i talked too barry who is the owner of shadbolt cams and we talked about cam lobe centres -he considers 108 centre quite narrow and for a very narrow power band operation ,with a 112 he figures with the carbs with straight & even runs at the valves there should be no noticable loss of low end power, a 112 lobe would be a great choice for a great street strip motor -better lower torque followed with a flatter rising torque curve as well as rpm range extended 500-700 rpm -. Do you like to go fast? A 112 LSA would be better if I had an automatic, but the engine builder (who has built many, many drag racing engines)told me I would have much faster acceleration with the 108, at the expense of a broader power band of course, but that 108 would not unduly penalize me for the street.